ultaviolet730: (CM&LT GLAAD by Groaty)
[personal profile] ultaviolet730
What is the deal with the MH board? Normally, I just lurk there. But today's "Don't hate the homophobe - hate the homophobia" post just left me speechless. (Scroll down to the last post on the page, by KatRose, one of the mods.) Well, almost speechless. I had to chime in, of course. There's just no way they'd tell people to be nice to a racist. I know they are trying to avoid ugliness, but it's just not okay to call being gay abnormal. And expecting people not to react to it is just... abnormal! And disingenuous. And fucking irritating.

Date: 2005-07-19 05:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theniwokesoftly.livejournal.com
I jsut can't read that board anymore. It makes my head hurt too much.

Date: 2005-07-19 05:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
The love train is a train wreck! I usually just look at the snark threads, but I can't resist the urge to wander.

Cool icon, btw.

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Date: 2005-07-19 05:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] heathers.livejournal.com
That's disgusting. I've always loathed KatRose @ the SVUfiction boards and this? Yeah. Not helping my opinion of her. At all. I submit that it is SHE that is missing the point contrary to what she keeps trying to sell.

-H

PS Your comment was awesome.

Date: 2005-07-19 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
She's being totally disingenuous, and it's painfully obvious. She's refusing to see the point. She knows there's a difference and she knows exactly what the difference is.

I could never quite get a handle on her before, but her posts really pushed my buttons. I don't know if this debate has surfaced on the board before, but it feels sadly familiar.

Super sekrit message: I know the job situation is messed up. I'll send you an e-mail about something new here that might be interesting for you. Less deadline oriented :)

Date: 2005-07-19 05:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cabenson.livejournal.com
The complaint about 1300 posters and only seven mods? Not our problem. And none of those mods are lesbians either. Regardless of how "open" they try to be, I won't consider that board anti-gay until a gay mod is appointed.

It should also be noted (for those just tuning in) that the original poster posted not one, but two polls asking for opinions on Olivia's sexuality. The reason everyone got pissed was the wording the poster used in her choices. I copied the original post because I knew it would get deleted.

do you think liv should be gay?

yes, we need more lead lesbian characters in primetime.

no, that's just saying if your independent, strong, and tough you've got to be gay.

no, homosexuality is wrong

yes, since liv's never found the perfect guy, maybe she sould search elsewhere.


I took offense to the wording of the entire poll, but I admit I went a little apeshit on that "No, homosexuality is wrong" choice.






Date: 2005-07-19 07:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
Wow - just what on earth is the purpose of that kind of poll, other than to show what an ignoramus the pollster is?

Did they delete the original post because of the offensive wording of the poll or because of the replies it generated?

I agree about the 1300 members/7 mods argument, as well. There might be 1300 members, but it seems like the same 13 (okay, maybe 113) do most of the posting.

As for having a gay mod? I bet that will never happen.

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Date: 2005-07-19 06:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sravenk.livejournal.com
Hly fucking fuck fuck. I now see the mod-hate, too. "Is intolerance of homophobes any less pitiful than the intolerance by homophobes?" Why, yes, KatRose, it is, in fact. Because showing a stand of zero tolerance to homophobic remarks shows a dedication to the stated intention of inclusion and safety for all members of the board, while the (defense) letting slide of homophobic content under the banner of free speech only allows homophobes to continue with their attacks with implied approval. Silence is violence, after all. And as far as being polite about our disagreement, I think there is a difference between personally attacking a poster and expressing anger and indignation at what amounts to be an unsurprisingly offensive statement.

Gar, why am I posting this here instead of on the Hate Train?

Thanks for the heads up. Grrrarrrghhhh!

Date: 2005-07-19 07:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
Just read your post, and it was great! I don't get this notion that posters are under some kind of obligation to teach and guide the other posters. Beyond that, these people know what they are posting is inflammatory and offensive. That's WHY they post it.

And ITA on equating a combative defense against insulting comments with the insulting comments themselves. It's crazy!

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Date: 2005-07-19 06:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slammerkinbabe.livejournal.com
Is intolerance of homophobes any less pitiful than the intolerance by homophobes?

Um, yes?

There are certain things that should not be tolerated. Homophobia is one of them. Homosexuals are not.

I mean, really.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't be free to express their opinions, because of course they should, but if someone's going to go around calling gays "wrong" then, yeah, you know, they're going to get jabbed right back. And the second round of jabs wouldn't have occurred if the first one hadn't happened.

Sometimes I feel like explaining such points is tantamount to taking a small child by the hand and pointing at the sky and saying "See? It's blue... no, I know, sweetie, but see? The grass is green, and it's not the same color as the sky... no, the grass is green, and the sky is blue. See how they're not the same color? No, see? Look at the sky and then look at the grass - are they the same?" It's just... beyond a certain point, you can't explain anymore. Or I can't. All I can do is stare.

Date: 2005-07-19 07:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
Is intolerance of homophobes any less pitiful than the intolerance by homophobes?

Um, yes?


Hee - that's what I wanted to say. And just end it there.

I'm giggling at the grass and sky comparison. I can see the retort: "But what about the ocean? It's green AND blue. That proves that homosexuality isn't normal."

Ack. I can't take it.

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Date: 2005-07-19 06:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] caliban22170.livejournal.com
I'm tempted to invite the entire m.com board over for a lovely afternoon of cross burning. Wait, was that offensive? There's no mod over here telling me how to think...

I feel like KatRose is one of those people who thinks she can apply, "Don't hate the playa, hate the game," to non TV/movie situations. I'll hate whatever I want, thank you very much, and no hurt feelings of a moderator-defended moron can change that.

Date: 2005-07-19 07:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
You and your dildo-pushing, lederhosen-wearing, cross-burning friends can't ride the love train until you give up the sticks, baby!

Moderater-defended-moron is almost* a palindrome. And you know, when in drome...



*And by almost, I mean, not really even close, but sort of.

Date: 2005-07-19 06:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theholyinnocent.livejournal.com
You must have a strong stomach to stowaway on the "Love" Train! But I'm glad you got our backs, baby! Your comment was great, the point well-made that a racist "opinion" would not be tolerated by anyone, particularly a mod.

I'm all for a "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" approach to many of life's problems, and even though debating with homophobes can be ugly ugly ugly, there can be a payoff--sometimes they realize how stupid and bigoted their attitudes are. But this mod really took the wrong tack in the matter. I don't think a homophobe needs that much protection. Give me a fucking break.

p.s. LOVE the icon! They're so cute together. I wonder if it drives CM's wife crazy, the fact that he has chemistry with the vast majority of the planet...

Date: 2005-07-19 07:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
It's a sickness, I tell you. I lurk at the Love Train and the Pit, instead of reading all those books I never counted or writing that hot A/E fic idea that won't leave my head. Or, sadly, my pen.


Your comment was great, the point well-made that a racist "opinion" would not be tolerated by anyone, particularly a mod.
This is such a sore point for me. And it has parallels to other prejudices. So much sexism is tolerated in the name of tolerance that it makes me sad. But that's a much more complicated issue than this. You can't tout your site as a "safe" place and then allow posters to make homophobic polls and comments.

And the honey/vinegar thing is all well and good, but the assumption, the starting point, should be tolerance. It's insane to require gay posters to guide the idiots to understanding.

p.s. LOVE the icon! They're so cute together. I wonder if it drives CM's wife crazy, the fact that he has chemistry with the vast majority of the planet...
Isn't it beautiful? They really are so sweet together. I can't deal with RPS/RPF, but when you look at them, it's hard not to let the mind wander.

As for the Mrs., she does have to put up with a lot. But the rewards she must reap...

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Date: 2005-07-19 06:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rosybug.livejournal.com
Haven't read the board yet and not sure I want to annoy myself. That sort of rationalisation - hate the sin and not the sinner stuff - is actually quite dangerous. Thinking about this now has made me realise why I don't buy into all the heart-cockle-warming forgiveness clap-trap that's being vaunted so much these days.

While I agree that one shouldn't allow one's life to be dictated by other people's bizarre choices, telling one to focus on the homophobia and not on the homophobes is an uncomfortable way of trying to divide something that isn't divisible. The phobe and phobia are part and parcel of the same thing. The phobia can't exist without the phobe. So to make us focus on the phobia (a mere abstraction anyway) is taking our attention off the root of the problem, isn't it? It seems to be a way of letting people shrug off responsibility for their choices.

Besides we can reisit individuals and their individual ideas, but we can't resist a generalisation like a phobia. How the hell does one combat a phobia?

BTW love your icon. My B/K icon is taking a rest at the moment - overused. It says: "In my fandom slash is canon". I love Oz.

This icon is courtesy of theothemight.

Date: 2005-07-19 07:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
We are united in our hatred of the people who say "hate the sin and not the sinner." Let's start a new train!

I agree that it's impossible to separate the issues the way the mod is trying. It's also just a copout. So anyone can say anything they want, as long as it's couched in civility. Would they be so forgiving if someone posted that MH's lifestyle was abnormal? I don't think so.

I love Oz.
Now THAT is a love train worth riding.

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Date: 2005-07-19 06:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] linnyb.livejournal.com
Wow. I didn't even get through a page of that crap before I started feeling...really sad. I love the idea that if you stick "IMHO" at the end of it, you can say whatever the hell you want. KatRose is a fuckface, IMHO. SEE? IT TOALLY WORKS.

Honestly. I've never seen an ounce of homophobia in Chris's fandom and he was tounging Tergesen off the clock at every turn, but even a hint, an implication, that *just* MH's character *might* be gay and people start freaking the fuck out. Makes you wonder.

Date: 2005-07-19 07:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
I love the idea that if you stick "IMHO" at the end of it, you can say whatever the hell you want. KatRose is a fuckface, IMHO. SEE? IT TOALLY WORKS.
Heehee - this cracks me up. My friends and I sometimes can be unkind (I know that's a shock), and we always append, "God bless her" or "Bless his heart" after we've mocked someone mercilessly. Or "God forgive me" when it's really bad. Like that's our Get Out Of Hell free card.

The thing is, we know it's bullshit!

MH fandom is kind of a scary place. What shocks me about the board is how young some of the posters are. And how much MH and the mods cater to them, rather than to the grown-ups.

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Date: 2005-07-19 06:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] audragoren.livejournal.com
Let me start by saying I do not go onto that board unless someone points out a particular fight or snarky remark. I read the thread, It's sick and I get the distinct feeling KatRose supports it. Why do we have to put labels on anyone? If Olivia's gay she's gay, maybe some of us want her to screw Elliot who cares? Why do these tweens start these polls and questions on the boards? It's because they want to look intelligent like they're older then 13. The love train lost its steam for me the 2nd day the board was up. I always wonder though....does Mariska know what a shambles that board is? Does she realize these kids are ruining her image and pushing out all the 22-35 year olds that are her core fan base? Thats why I have switched my loyalties...I'll be a squeeing fangirl for Diane Neal,thank you very much!

Date: 2005-07-19 07:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
Does she realize these kids are ruining her image and pushing out all the 22-35 year olds that are her core fan base?
Ha - I just posted about this in the reply above. I swear I didn't look at yours first! It's bizarre how much the kiddies rule the roost there. I guess it guarantees MH popularity in years to come, but it's alienating to anyone with an age or IQ over 15.

Date: 2005-07-19 06:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sravenk.livejournal.com
Well, I just posted a long-winded reply, with a branc-spankin' new "silence me" icon, to boot!

Date: 2005-07-19 07:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] debaser28.livejournal.com
We must not hurt the bigot's feelings! Not really. I loved your response there, Ultraviolet.

Date: 2005-07-19 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
We must not hurt the bigot's feelings!
Ha - that sums it up nicely. And absurdly. Nice job!

Date: 2005-07-19 07:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lostingeekdom.livejournal.com
Stark just pointed me to the debate going on. Instead of using the tired and cliched excuse of not having enough mods, why the hell don't they do something about it? Step one would definitely involve having a gay mod. I have seen repeated posts by that fuckface deedee and others of her ilk which go by without any comments. And one time when I did react to one of those posts, they deleted my comment, but kept the original one on. Just .. Gah! I'm just not going to shut up and take it quietly anymore. Maybe I can tone down my language .. but I won't tone down my anger or my disgust.

Date: 2005-07-19 07:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
They seem far more interested in moderating the responses to insults than the insults themselves. It's pretty clear that approach isn't satisfying anyone. And it does make me wonder what MH herself thinks of it, or if she doesn't even look at/think about the boards at all.

And one time when I did react to one of those posts, they deleted my comment, but kept the original one on. Just .. Gah!
Damn - that is SO annoying. And so double standard-y. Or, you know, hypocritical.

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Date: 2005-07-19 10:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aivilo-18.livejournal.com
Heh. Love you babe. You fucking rock.

Date: 2005-07-20 03:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
Back at you.

I'm dumbstruck, however, having just read the responses to your post. I can't believe they are still equating the acceptance of all sexualities with the acceptance of all opinions.

Date: 2005-07-19 11:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cabenson.livejournal.com
She locked the thread after leaving HER final thoughts on the matter. That place is like crack. I hate to admit I go thre, but I gotta have a fix.

Date: 2005-07-20 12:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] noblerot.livejournal.com
I've just read the mod's comment, and... WTF? It's "not okay to ridicule someone for their opinion?" Since when is offensive bigotry an OPINION?

I just... they're so... it's.... there are no words.

Date: 2005-07-20 03:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
Exactly! Bigotry is not acceptable. I'm a little shocked at what a difficult concept this appears to be over there.

Date: 2005-07-20 03:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sweetgingertea.livejournal.com
That's just stupid. Those remarks about "normal" ARE OFFENSIVE. I have to say though, reading the thread with voices so loudly and clearly saying "we won't tolerate homophobia" was really nice, I'm just sad it had to be sparked by idiots.

Date: 2005-07-20 03:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
It's definitely a vicious cycle over there. Either the mods are narrow-minded, dense or deliberately obtuse. I'm going with the latter, with a slice of disingenuous. Luckily, for me, it's not a place I frequent regularly. But I know a lot of folks who do, and it's upsetting to think this is the way the place is run.

Date: 2005-07-20 01:13 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I found this post through the thursday100plus friends list. At the risk of causing further offense, I think the moderator at the mariska board had a point. The original poster implied that being gay wasn't normal and so Liv shouldn't be gay. Her post was an attack on a lifestyle, not an individual. The response was to attack the poster. Having been personally attacked is likely to reinforce this girl's views, because she will see continue to see gays, not as individuals with whom she may have much in common, but as this hostile amorphous group.

Date: 2005-07-20 03:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
The original poster implied that being gay wasn't normal and so Liv shouldn't be gay. Her post was an attack on a lifestyle, not an individual. The response was to attack the poster.
Attacking a lifestyle IS an attack on an individual - in fact, all the individuals with that lifestyle.

In addition, the replies were not all hostile or combative. But the point is that the initial post/poll is the one that should have elicited a response from the mods, not the replies. The insult was made by the original poster.

The Mariska.com message board and chatroom were created to provide a safe and friendly environment for people of all age, race, gender, and sexuality.
Apparently, it is also a safe place for people of any prejudice, as well.

Having been personally attacked is likely to reinforce this girl's views, because she will see continue to see gays, not as individuals with whom she may have much in common, but as this hostile amorphous group.
Sorry, but that's bull. If the poster is watching SVU, reading the board and paying attention to the person for whom the board and site were created, then she should already BE open to people of all stripes and sizes.

And you know what, thinking, rational, open-minded people ARE hostile to bigots. And we shouldn't have to sweet talk them or coddle them or hold their hands.

No one wants a board full of rancor and personal insults. Or bigots.

At least, I wouldn't think anyone would want that.

Date: 2005-07-20 09:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aqua-blurr.livejournal.com
Nice responses, UV! It was pretty clear from KatRose's comments at SVUfiction forums (which I stopped reading because of her) that she believes homophobic "homosexuality-disapporving" remarks are completely valid, if controversial, opinions. Like Monetarism versus supply-side economics. Just an opinion. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch over. Silly, over-sensitive .

Remember, dear, hate the genocide, but love the Nazi! Bigots are people too!

Date: 2005-07-21 02:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
I just can't believe the disingenuous crap they are spewing. Today's version says that KatRose never saw the offending post, which is just bullshit. If you're moderating a heated discussion, wouldn't you make it a point to read all the relevant posts.

But even if she had, I agree with you. It's pretty clear from that shocking SVUFiction rant against the "glut" of A/O fics that she's homophobic, that she not only accepts that people have homophobic opinions but at some level, agrees with them.

Remember, dear, hate the genocide, but love the Nazi! Bigots are people too!
Words to live by - well, if you're going to ride the Love Train!

Date: 2005-07-20 11:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] noir-moll.livejournal.com
Christ Almighty, that board just gets quantitatively worse every time I hear about it.

There's just no way they'd tell people to be nice to a racist.

Exactly. Where the fuck would we be if everyone was "nice" and tolerated the various forms of ignorance that exist? And that's about as much I can say on the subject without strewing obscenities all over the place.

Date: 2005-07-21 02:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
It's scary and getting scarier. I don't like to be too egotistical, or I would have posted a link to these responses on my LJ, as well as others, to let the mods know that no one is buying their act.

Well, no one with a IQ or age over 15, as I said somewhere else.

Date: 2005-07-21 05:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] learned-hand.livejournal.com
It truly does not look any better to reject people for being homophobic than to reject people for being homosexual.

Yes, it truly does. Because being homophobic is wrong while being homosexual is not.


Okay, you have never been hotter. Never. Marry me, okay? I promise not to terminate our marriage in any of the five ways a marriage is terminable in NY. And since this is a promise in consideration of marriage, it should be in writing and signed. /s Learned Hand

Um, I'm clearly losing it. But that's not the point. I have never seen such ridiculous, idiotic reasoning -- or at least, not since the last time I was on that board. WTF? I wish I'd gotten to it in time to post. I'm still laughing at "Until we learn to respect everyone's views: gay, straight, bigoted..." BWAH! What a frecking idiot.

As Dave Barry would say: Keep in mind that, under our system of government, these people can vote.

The so-called free speech arguments just make me shake my head in wonder. As power-mad and delusional as Mariska's self-important, imbecilic moderators may be, they can't violate your free speech by deleting a post. Oh, what am I saying? Soverign Mariskaland probably has its own Constitution -- I'm sorry, Lovestitution. Because "Con" is, like, such a negative word. It reminds me of people being all mean to bigots:

"We, the immature but like totally well-meaning fans of Mariska, at least some of whom are over 14 years of age, in order to form more perfect yet less substantive posts, establish just blind worship, ensure that no one objects to the tranquility of our half-formed ideas, provide for the defense of any and all homophobic comments 'cause, like, bigots are people too, promote the general welfare of Mariska's lame fake foundation, and secure the blessings of immense wealth coupled with extremely poor judgment and a desperate need for fannish feedback, for ourselves and everyone else on the Lovetrain, do ordain and establish this Lovestitution for Mariskaland."

Ay-men.

Date: 2005-07-25 03:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
Did I forget to reply to this? Because it cracked me up when I got it. You know I love it when you talk legalese.

I'm still laughing at "Until we learn to respect everyone's views: gay, straight, bigoted..." BWAH! What a frecking idiot.
Yes! That was the worst of all the idiotic quotes. At least, I think it was. There were so many, it was hard to keep up. But that one just made me shake my head.

Oh, what am I saying? Soverign Mariskaland probably has its own Constitution -- I'm sorry, Lovestitution. Because "Con" is, like, such a negative word. It reminds me of people being all mean to bigots:
Yup - still laughing at this. I love the Lovestitution. And there wouldn't be amendments, but apeopledments.

Sending good thoughts your way this week, baby!

KatRose

Date: 2005-07-27 08:04 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Wow, I am a little late here, but just read the now closed thread. Katrose is a bitch! Her and Myrth are all over that board! To me they sound more like squueeeing fans than mods. katrose has no regard for lesbians, she has always been one to protect the Homophobes. Is anyone else tired of her saying she works in the industry? WTF does she do anyways! She cannot be that important if she can spend all her time sitting on m.com protecting the phobes. To be honest I truly thought it would be Danielle to do what Kat is doing. surprisingly she is rather quiet.

Mariska needs a gay mod!!!!

Re: KatRose

Date: 2005-07-28 07:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
I wasn't around for all the drama on other MH boards, but I know Danielle has achieved some level of infamy for her behavior. I just don't know why.

As for KatRose, I finally had to give up banging my head against the wall. She persists in the folly that not tolerating the opinions of homophobes is as bad/the same thing as the opinion-holders themselves. After a certain point, it just becomes comical. Or tragic.

Date: 2005-07-29 05:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hippychild.livejournal.com
I'm sorry I just got here and there probably isn't anymore to be said, I just wish I had found this earlier so I didn't feel like I was banging my head off a brick wall a week or so ago. I'm MsLahbib on the boards btw.
You're my new hero.....*sighs*

Date: 2005-07-31 07:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet730.livejournal.com
Hello - nice to meet you! I'm so sorry you had to wade through all that alone. Commiseration was essential. I still can't quite believe it all happened, and the things that were said, were actually said. I really don't know what the mods, or the role model, over there are thinking. Or if anything anyone said made any difference :(
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